I have a few tidbits which I want to share or which I want to get off my mind:
First: A few people have pointed me to the Linden 1.19.1 Office Hour where the issue about my patches was raised. I've read it, but there's nothing much I care to say about it. The Lindens (or more precisely some Lindens) mahave their views, I have mine -- and they differ.
However, since the issue was mentioned in the office hour and because through a pointer from someone, I did notice that VWR-374 (asstachments) is marked as closed and fixed on the Jira. I did not see it in the release notes but for sure it is there in the source code. And given what Brad Linden says about the patch in the office hour, I must admit that I can't help but point you with considerable smugness to the source code (see line 169/170).
Second™ thing on my mind is a comment made by Prokofy last week. He was asking about my view of Open Source (see the comments to the Moment of Truth post, somewhere in the middle). I've often seen Prokofy as being quite insightful and ironically the longer I have been in this, the more I tend to agree with him, even on views which I found utterly ridiculous when I first heard them (oh, and btw, I found his coverage of VW08 excellent, especially the parts about OpenSim).
But regarding his comment and Open Source: I now think there's Open Source (truely cooperative ventures, which are for lack of a better word, democratically organized) and there's open source which merely means that the source code is available to the public. To mistake one for the other has been the root of many of my frustrations with this little adventure and I guess I am not alone there. I would be tempted to blame some of it on the Lindens for talking like Open Source and acting like open source, but there is nobody to blame except myself, because I failed to do what I thought I learned long ago, that is, to look at what people do rather than to listen what people say.
As Proky says in his comment: Coders are free to come to a project and they are free to leave. He's right there and also in saying "It [LL] is a proprietary group that isn't showing its hand." Nothing of this is new, but sometimes there is a difference between seeing and hearing something and taking it to heart. I have no problem with a commercial operation (I'm running a commercial closed source business myself), nor do I have a problem with idealistically inspired ventures. My only problem with commerce is, when it's sold under the guise of idealism. But as I said, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Did I mention that I find Prokofy insightful? Oh I guess yes :-). He correctly picked up my vibrations about the screen estate of "Your world. Your imagination" vs. "Linden Lab and IBM" and "CSI:NY". It took me a while to figure it out myself (the biggest blind spots are always about oneself), but their website is not about what I think they should be, but it is simply what they do which, like avatars, reflects what they are.
I now remember something which I had forgotten. The first time I really questioned my involvement with SL was last autumn, when I saw the CSI:NY covering the whole screen and more importantly, when hearing that their OnRez viewer had closed source improvements based on the open source version. While I have no problem with spending free time on an idealistic venture (let's say something like OpenSim, although that doesn't work for a variety of unrelated reasons), I have absolutely no intention to work for CBN (or now IBM) for free ... hourly rates or flat rate pricing per project upon request, thank you for your interest.
As long as I saw Linden Lab as an idealistic venture, I did not mind if they cashed in a few fruits which fell from my tree. It's not so much that I need to be paid for what I did here, because my business always had provided me with more than I need. This is similar to Prokofy not needing to get paid for writing his blog or newspaper, because these activities (blogging and OS coding) are quite similar, in that they have their return in intangibles, whatever these may be for the individual person.
Prok says: "Ultimately, you have not persuaded me that somehow opensourcing and crowdsourcing people's labour for free is preferable to proprietary code managed by companies that take into account many other considerations than whether you find something interesting."
I fully agree, nobody could persuade me about that either. It is not preferable. It's merely different. As I said, my own business runs on proprietary closed source and so do many successful ventures. Equally successful ventures run on Open Source and voluntarism. I'm running Firefox on Microsoft XP here, I'm not using Open Source operating systems, neither am I using commercial browsers. It's not how they are made, but which result I prefer.
Mixing both approaches also works sometime (there is a project called Wine which does it with great success), but it requires skillful management and communication, two traits which Linden Lab is distinctly lacking. To me, Open Source isn't an ideology (although I admit that there are people for whom it is one). It's just a means of organization and if there is involvement bordering to self exploitation, it is because people are getting something else back, something which mostly can't be paid for with money anyway, like a sense of community, interesting exchange, the opportunity to do something you enjoy (many open source programmers have a different daytime job, so it gives them a chance to do some meaningful coding). Once the rent is paid, it does not matter if you get those intangibles from going to a bowling club two times a week, or to a rabbit breeder club, or if you work with others on a software project which you find appealing.
My rent is paid, but getting intangibles from catering patches to Linden Lab™ has become increasingly hard, so I'm putting an end to that part of the involvement.
Now third™ but not last, the following may come as a surprise to you. You can believe me, it came as much of a surprise to myself: Despite of what I said and thought I would do last week, and despite what I say above, the idea of looking at the recent memory leak kept bugging me (it seems that I still enjoy solving puzzles or I guess I'm just a pervert coder).
Last Friday I had downloaded the source code because I was looking for the asstachment fix (see above). Somehow one thing led to the other and before I knew I was looking at leak dumps. I swear I didn't intend to do it, really it was just an accident :-)
Well, I guess I don't need to mention the outcome *grins broadly*. Then, because a result like this is too good to go unused, especially for a guy with an ego as big as mine, more things led to one another ...
I'll spare you the details, but unless something goes very very wrong, you can expect the fruits of Friday night to appear at an Open Source (capital letters) outlet near you pretty soon (Update: see the comments for a first download link).
Sunday, April 13, 2008
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
22 comments:
/me smiles
Hehe! Addictions are hard to overcome. :)
I look forward to the results of your addiction.
TomasG
YAY!!
You're just a masochist :)
YAY
*hugs Nicholaz*
THANKS
Woot! Great news about a build!
I think the "Open Source" distinction is useful, but it doesn't surprise me that LL is only "open source". To me, LL's inability to work with open sourcers looks like either simple incompetence or conflicted priorities. I often wish LL would hire part-time liasons to work closely with both LL and specific portions of the SL community. Such liasons can help a company to focus so that both the company and user community benefit.
I think the fear engendered by residents who trumpet about favoritism (Prokofy being a very prominent example) keeps LL from making use of this common, effective way of working in partnership with customers.
I'm glad to hear this, Nicholaz - I just started using your viewer after the mandatory upgrade to 19.0. My PC is old, low RAM (planning to upgrade soon), etc. - doesn't work so well with LL's 'shiny' new viewers. And after hearing about all the problems with those new viewers... well... I dreaded the day when I would have to use them if yours was no longer compatible.
Yay for addictions and masochism :-p
Interesting points that you raise. There does seem to be this issue that many older-time residents have with making the mindshift from the LL of old, and the newer LL. For whatever reason many of us still view LL through the glasses of 3 or more years ago, when quite clearly they are no longer that same company, ethos-wise.
Anyway, many thanks for keeping us updated (blogwise for the moment, viewerwise in days to come).
I do have a question on the update though.
Will it be incorporating Windlight? I ask this as there is some of us ATI users that still cannot use Windlight at all because of the render glitch (JIRA https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3258). And turning off VBO is not really a solution when it slows FPS to 1 or close to.
cheers
ama
Oh yess, I'm a compulsive coder ... LOL. Masochist I don't know, I just follow my bliss, even if it makes me appear like a fool (making a U-turn like that).
Nika "... looks like either simple incompetence or conflicted priorities". - I think conflicted priorites is it. Programmers have their own ideas of fun and importing other people's patches isn't high up on that list.
Quaintly: With low RAM the Bleeding Edge and Old School editions are for you (see yesterday's posts for links), at least as long as they work (which could be for quite some time -- hopefully).
Ama: Yes, this will be a Windlight build. Official 1.19.1 sans some bugs, but overall closer to the official version than my other editions (I'm just taking this as far as the momentum from the leak-hunt is carrying me). But as for Quaintly, the older versions are still working and are recommended.
All: Test drive is looking good so far, reasonable memory use over half an hour with 30 avatars around ... :-)
Dammit, and I just quit the group..... ;-)
I hope there's no cure for compulsive coding! Welcome back, Nick!
Btw, there are also some really unpleasant things Proky has said about coders in general. WEB-382 in JIRA never fails to shock me in certain ways. I wonder if you criticism of LL is the reason why Proky likes you...
When you say closer to the official version than your previous editions does this mean the GUI patches applied in BE-V won't be seen in this release? I'm loathe to use the official client due to the user unfriendly interface and crossing my fingers that you've managed to port the patch for it over.
Alyx: It's hard to understand a programmer when you're not one, and vice versa ... and generalizations are hardly accurate anyway, so VWR-382 never bothered me much (and with many of his posts, there are what I see as valid points, once you cut away the ranting parts and shift perspective a bit).
Also, I'm not sure if he likes me (or vice versa), but I think there's respect and doesn't necessarily require agreement.
Kaia: Well, halfway. There are parts which didn't carry over (my friends list and the friends button got lost on the way), but some did, which should still make it an improvement if for some reason you can't or don't want to use Bleeding Edge.
All: Oki dokey, weekend is over (and that's how much time I gave myself) and here is the result.
Please follow the usual routine (download and unpack on top of a 1.19.1.4) and (hopefully) enjoy some leak-less and crash-reduced EyeCandy.
(Oh, and let me know how it goes, if something goes wrong, I'll try to fix it if it is possible with reasonable effort.)
Having attended numerous office hours over the course of a year, and spent extensive time on the JIRA, I can relate a lot to this post. When an open source coder introduces a patch, LL takes that patch not as a contribution but as a suggestion (their words, not mine). Maybe they'll sit on it for a year. Maybe they won't. The deciding factor seems to be whether it aligns with their plans or not (what those are? Who knows), which should make one wonder, what's the point of any open source contribution at all?
In that regard, I've come to view LL's open sourcing of the viewer as a kind of safety valve for the company. Open source the viewer, let our community of programmers and techies look at it, let them fix what they can find. Never mind providing documentation. Never mind providing source drops that work. Never mind communicating our plans for the viewer or target goals or talking to the community on a two-way street or even implementing community-developed features. This is our viewer. You can look at it, and if your patch saves us some labor we'll use it. Otherwise, not interested.
Various exceptions to this line of thinking immediately come to mind, but as a general attitude this seems accurate considering that for LL, open source is just a side project. Why would they need to communicate with us if they're just going to do what they're going to do anyway?
So does this mean...
1. You're no longer submitting patches to LL, but will continue developing your own seperate viewer?
2. This is a one off, and you're REALLY stopping after this Viewer.
3. Other/not decided yet
Which is it?
This must be the best news in a couple of week, SL wise :-)))
Ever since I've started using the Nicholaz viewer I've had a lot less problems - and I still fear the day when there will be no more updates from you - for the past few weeks I've been praying every single day that the Bleeding Edge would still work for a looooooong time ;-)
SL is the only way of income for me right now due to some RL health issues (and even though it's nothing like a RL income, it does help), so for me it's not just a game.
Naturally I'm gratefull for every week I can still log on (none of the official viewers are working for me any longer whereas I have none of the issues with yours).
Apart from that I can *totally* understand your frustration with everything you had to experience with LL, in fact I find it absolutely amazing that you still bother, I guess I would have come to that point of wanting and planning to quit a lot sooner ;-)
I hope you don't mind a BIG HUG from a total stranger:-)
THANKS :-)))
anonymous#1: That's pretty much my experience. I can see the reasons for that (from being overworked, to being a heterogeneous group, etc. etc.) and there are exceptions like Soft who's working his (her?) ass off to make a difference.
But the overall experience for an outsider is that of making pleas and offerings to the gods. This is totally understandable and acceptable when dealing with a commercial company, it was just the "working together" blurp that got in my way (I'm sometimes amazingly dim).
anonymous#2: it's most likely like answer 2. The time restrictions with my RL business didn't change, I had just an unexpected burst of motivation. It may happen again, or it may not, I simply don't know.
renchen: Wow, thanks for sharing this ...
Well the main point of open source software is so that a user can fix bugs, add features, etc.. Exactly what you have done.
The whole "leveraging the community to improve your product" thing is *not* what open source is about, but in reality it is just a talking point to help convince companies to open their code up.
The sooner people understand that the Second Life client is open source, but not the Second Life "Project" the happier they will be. :-)
If I knew C++ I'd be tempted to fork the client, but I don't so I wont ;)
Jonnie: You're right ... I remember when reading something about GPL3 the core point was "the right to tinker".
And right you are, re open source vs. Project ... but well, we live and learn :-)
the return of the jedi... er.. mad patcher.
Hi Nick, thanks so much for coming back. I am running your viewer for 4 hours without any slow down or memory leak. I had forgotten how it feels :)
I have nothing special to say. Just thank you.
Love the viewer! Well, love it except for one particular problem : It crashes instantly any time I press CTRL-F for my friends list :(
Other than that, though, runs smooth with no problems!
THANK YOU for the new viewer!!
One question please - when I run the viewer I get a separate "DOS-looking" box that runs simultaneously. I can minimize it, but if I try to close it , it also takes me out of SL.
Can someone please help me figure out what that is and how to turn it off?
Thanks!!
Takun: The EC-e version has the crash fixed.
Czari: The box is the log console. I don't know why it appears, but I think it should not be there in EC-e (also I think there is a debug setting for it somewhere).
Everything is GREAT but I do miss the group in another tab of an im window, and also the profile button should be on top. I couldn't able to tp a person unless add a friend first. That is no fun. And also there is movie/sound on the interface... why can't it treated as float like camera control has a float? That's all!
it's amazing so far.. glad there has NO windlight!
Thank you,
Anti-Windlight.
Post a Comment